Creating an Event file with Atlogis?

[Ken Gullins]

I don't represent an O club; I'm just a hobbyist having fun so I haven't purchased OCAD. Plus Google Earth is too big to run properly on my computer so it chokes when I try to do anything in GE. I'm trying to create my KML Event file for Check Sites in an app called Canada Maps, from a German company called Atlogis, which I've been using for years and I really like.

I have succeeded in creating a "Route" file in Atlogis which I can export as a KML, so far, so good! I've re-named the first and last points to S1 and F1 as required for CheckSites but this file is not accepted by the MapRun's CheckSites uploader. The error being the S1 and F1. (I assume because the Atlogis KML still uses the original names as S and E despite my renaming them?) Thus my KML file can not be loaded into MapRun's CheckSites and my event cannot be created.

I believe I'm doing everything else right because I did succeed in getting a different KML file to upload. I created this one by exporting it from a working MapRun QuickStart event. Which is kind of dumb but I just wanted to see if it would work!

Does anyone have any suggestions?

And this raises the broader question: Is MapRun intended for amateur hobbyists, such as myself? Or is it targeted strictly to O clubs who know what they're doing and have the proper hardware and software?

[Peter Effeney]

Ken,

Preparing KML files:
- There is a multitude of methods available
- Some use completely online tools eg www.oomap.co.uk, and Google Earth has an online version that doesn't need to be installed on your PC
- Ultimately you can edit your KML file with a normal text editor (or even create it that way if you want).
- Atlogis - maybe try opening the KML file it has produced with a text editor so check the names

MapRun Focus
- Our focus is on where we can deliver the maximum benefits
- At this stage, the main volume of use is by Clubs for organised events, and so this is a primary focus
- Having said that, MapRunF offers the ability to set a simple event without anything other than the MapRunF App. Once you step beyond that level, you do need some tools to produce KML files (and KMZ files if you want a Map). These are common formats and there are lots of free tools, but it does need a PC/Mac capable of running these (or rely solely on on-line versions).

Peter

[Ken Gullins]

Atlogis strings the points all end to end: very messy and hard to edit compared to MapRun's layout for KML's which is very logical and intuitive.

Tried oomap and didn't like it either.

Still looking! Will try some of my other free apps but most seem to require getting the paid version to enable creating a Route.

On Tue, Dec 29, 2020 at 7:09 PM Peter Effeney [via MapRun] <[hidden email]> wrote:

Ken,

Preparing KML files:
- There is a multitude of methods available
- Some use completely online tools eg www.oomap.co.uk, and Google Earth has an online version that doesn't need to be installed on your PC
- Ultimately you can edit your KML file with a normal text editor (or even create it that way if you want).
- Atlogis - maybe try opening the KML file it has produced with a text editor so check the names

MapRun Focus
- Our focus is on where we can deliver the maximum benefits
- At this stage, the main volume of use is by Clubs for organised events, and so this is a primary focus
- Having said that, MapRunF offers the ability to set a simple event without anything other than the MapRunF App. Once you step beyond that level, you do need some tools to produce KML files (and KMZ files if you want a Map). These are common formats and there are lots of free tools, but it does need a PC/Mac capable of running these (or rely solely on on-line versions).

Peter

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[MichaelRaz]

Hi Ken,

I'm not 100% sure what you are trying to do (and there is also likely a terminology issue causing some confusion).  As Peter has suggested, I would put MapRun more in the area of a club tool because it is focused on primarily the punching aspect of events/courses (replacing/augmenting other methods such as SI) although there is the grey area and lots of things an individual can do depending on the aim.  For a club event the mapping and course setting are the major activities that, depending on the level (and desire to meet standards) is time consuming (and can be expensive - mapping especially).  I am neither a mapper nor a qualified course setter (although I do a bit of both).  If I do set courses I get them approved by a qualified person, not only to make them better but to meet our insurance requirements.  In general, my approach is to make courses (or have others make courses) their "normal" way and then convert the parts to MapRun. The advantage to this is I don't have to get a bunch of people to change the way they have been doing things for years, only advise them on adjustments that are better suited to a GPS punching system.

Although my club has licenses for OCAD, CONDES and more, there are decent free tools available depending on what aspect of the process you are trying to do.  

For developing maps a favourite is Open Orienteering https://www.openorienteering.org/ not to be confused with the online openorienteeringmap https://oomap.co.uk/global/#/new/streeto_global/4/-0.1000/51.1000/ that is great for really quick urban maps based strictly off openmap sources. The former provides some good map making tools can read/write ocad files.

For course setting my goto free software is PurplePen https://purplepen.golde.org/ which can use OCAD, image files and other sources as the base map and has decent course setting tools as well as basic map adjustment tools.  it works really well with the OpenOrienteering package.

Obviously lots of other free general GIS software out there (QGIS) but generally much more complicated and not focused on Orienteering.

My issues always seem to be with changing coordinate systems although I am learning.

Non of this helps directly with MapRunf.  Some of the tools will directly export into KMZ or KML format (map, course) but many do not and require some conversion.  Peter's comment about getting to know the KML and KMZ formats using a basic text editor is so important (I use Notepad++).  Add a good archive package such as 7Zip, you can work directly in the KMZ file as this is just a KML file (providing the geo data for the map image) and a folder with an image map file (or a bunch if tiled). KML (and KMZ) provide the standard to contain the data but various software will lay things out in very different ways.  I would suggest that MapRunF has been designed to expect the contents in the format that is most used by the various orienteering software packages.  For example, a KMZ from OCAD is great but I have produced a KMZ from another geo product (not orienteering related) and the resulting KMZ was not compatible without a lot of changes with MapRunF (although a perfectly acceptable KMZ for Google Earth).  Example - Google allows 2 (or more?) ways to georeference the image in a KMZ and only one works with MapRunF.

Make sure you are familiar with the tools at http://www.p.fne.com.au/rg/cgi-bin/o-utils.cgi as these will allow you to do things like convert a course XML file to KML.  As you are likely discovering there are also a growing list of other utilities specifically to handle MapRunF requirements. I wrote my own small application to do a bunch of stuff that best suited my work process - not hard in my case as I had a lot of the code done for setting up Routegadget for club events.

I do think your job is going to be much harder if you cannot get Google Earth running on your computer (I don't see a large memory use or CPU use with it.  Not sure about the web version Peter suggested.).  It provides an easy way to validate control locations, make changes etc.  I also use it often to produce the KMZ from plain image maps I need to work with.  Although this can be a frustrating experience when the original map was not accurate, it gets the job done.  It helps that our club works with paper maps and people are encouraged not to use the phone map anyway.

Enough babbling - hopefully some of this will be useful.

Michael

[Ken Gullins]

This is great, thank you Michael! And thanks also for all the work you do for ooc.

I'll work through all that when I get a chance. My new little hobby while waiting for the vaccine.

Basically I've done all the self-directed club events east and south of Ottawa Alta Vista, so now I'm just branching out and trying to learn enough to create my own for personal use. I'm really intrigued by the MapRun app and particularly the roll-your-own capabilities offered by Quick Start and Check Sites.  

On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 9:32 AM MichaelRaz [via MapRun] <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Ken,

I'm not 100% sure what you are trying to do (and there is also likely a terminology issue causing some confusion).  As Peter has suggested, I would put MapRun more in the area of a club tool because it is focused on primarily the punching aspect of events/courses (replacing/augmenting other methods such as SI) although there is the grey area and lots of things an individual can do depending on the aim.  For a club event the mapping and course setting are the major activities that, depending on the level (and desire to meet standards) is time consuming (and can be expensive - mapping especially).  I am neither a mapper nor a qualified course setter (although I do a bit of both).  If I do set courses I get them approved by a qualified person, not only to make them better but to meet our insurance requirements.  In general, my approach is to make courses (or have others make courses) their "normal" way and then convert the parts to MapRun. The advantage to this is I don't have to get a bunch of people to change the way they have been doing things for years, only advise them on adjustments that are better suited to a GPS punching system.

Although my club has licenses for OCAD, CONDES and more, there are decent free tools available depending on what aspect of the process you are trying to do.  

For developing maps a favourite is Open Orienteering https://www.openorienteering.org/ not to be confused with the online openorienteeringmap https://oomap.co.uk/global/#/new/streeto_global/4/-0.1000/51.1000/ that is great for really quick urban maps based strictly off openmap sources. The former provides some good map making tools can read/write ocad files.

For course setting my goto free software is PurplePen https://purplepen.golde.org/ which can use OCAD, image files and other sources as the base map and has decent course setting tools as well as basic map adjustment tools.  it works really well with the OpenOrienteering package.

Obviously lots of other free general GIS software out there (QGIS) but generally much more complicated and not focused on Orienteering.

My issues always seem to be with changing coordinate systems although I am learning.

Non of this helps directly with MapRunf.  Some of the tools will directly export into KMZ or KML format (map, course) but many do not and require some conversion.  Peter's comment about getting to know the KML and KMZ formats using a basic text editor is so important (I use Notepad++).  Add a good archive package such as 7Zip, you can work directly in the KMZ file as this is just a KML file (providing the geo data for the map image) and a folder with an image map file (or a bunch if tiled). KML (and KMZ) provide the standard to contain the data but various software will lay things out in very different ways.  I would suggest that MapRunF has been designed to expect the contents in the format that is most used by the various orienteering software packages.  For example, a KMZ from OCAD is great but I have produced a KMZ from another geo product (not orienteering related) and the resulting KMZ was not compatible without a lot of changes with MapRunF (although a perfectly acceptable KMZ for Google Earth).  Example - Google allows 2 (or more?) ways to georeference the image in a KMZ and only one works with MapRunF.

Make sure you are familiar with the tools at http://www.p.fne.com.au/rg/cgi-bin/o-utils.cgi as these will allow you to do things like convert a course XML file to KML.  As you are likely discovering there are also a growing list of other utilities specifically to handle MapRunF requirements. I wrote my own small application to do a bunch of stuff that best suited my work process - not hard in my case as I had a lot of the code done for setting up Routegadget for club events.

I do think your job is going to be much harder if you cannot get Google Earth running on your computer (I don't see a large memory use or CPU use with it.  Not sure about the web version Peter suggested.).  It provides an easy way to validate control locations, make changes etc.  I also use it often to produce the KMZ from plain image maps I need to work with.  Although this can be a frustrating experience when the original map was not accurate, it gets the job done.  It helps that our club works with paper maps and people are encouraged not to use the phone map anyway.

Enough babbling - hopefully some of this will be useful.

Michael

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[MichaelRaz]

Ken,

Firstly - sorry - I thought I recognized your name but didn't put it all together!

If you use the "send Email" function to send me your actual email, I'll forward you a PDF presentation I produced for a number of the club course setters.  it is much too complicated (which I tend to do often) but you may find some interesting/useful nuggets in it - given this is your lockdown hobby now!  Once things settle back to normal you should consider doing the basic course setting training.  We have also put on mapping courses as well.  The club can always use more mappers and course setters/meet directors.
As you are aware, we have more Maprun course in the West end primarily as I live way out in the west end so have been a bit lazy.  My current background focus has just been on providing a few basic trail run courses so people can get out on snowshoes, fat bikes etc during winter - not that we are getting the snow at this point.  These tend to be easier to set up as a lot of the draft control locations can be set up in Google Earth and the on-site validation effort is reduced.

Michael

[Ken Gullins]

OK thanks for helpful replies from Peter and Michael.

I've taken a good look and compared printouts of a KML file exported from Atlogis vs one that works and is accepted for import into MapRun's CheckSites.

Since Atlogis stores their data points in one long LineString, I've concluded that it would take a lot of editing to massage these into the form required by MapRun. I'm not a programmer, but the layout of the MapRun Placemarks seems pretty intuitive, with the name and co-ordinates of every point spelled out in sequence. Atlogis, not so much - mebbe it's proprietary?

To prepare the file, I first re-named the first and last points from S and E to S1 an F1 as required for MapRun's input but I don't even see where the point names are stored in Atlogis!

This manhandling of the data points might be worth it for someone with an important one-off event, but I can't see myself doing this every time I want to create a new event. Not a production system. Case closed for now.

Thanks again!

[Ken Gullins]

Solution found thanks to an effort beyond the call of duty by our local O guru.
Thanks again, Michael!